We spent the first few chapters heavily focused on Fitzgerald's use of evocative language to present the setting and its inhabitants in meticulous, often thematically complex detail. Now we'll start to unpack those themes, which means getting philosophical. Specifically, we can get a lot of our of understanding two very ancient philosophers, Plato and Aristotle, associated with philosophical theories called IDEALISM and REALISM. You can read about them in the slide above; notice how Plato, as Idealist, points upward, towards higher ideals, while Aristotle the realist holds his hand outward to draw attention to the here-and-now. We've seen this kind of pairing before: for instance, clerk Sammy from "A&P" was a pretend-hero idealist, while the manager (and presumably the girls) represented realism. Then there are characters with elements of both, like John Proctor.
Fitzgerald openly tells us that Gatsby is a Platonic Idealist: "The truth was that Jay Gatsby of West Egg, Long Island, sprang from his Platonic conception of himself. He was a son of God — a phrase which, if it means anything, means just that — and he must be about His Father’s business, the service of a vast, vulgar, and meretricious beauty. So he invented just the sort of Jay Gatsby that a seventeen-year-old boy would be likely to invent, and to this conception he was faithful to the end." Unpacking this complex quote requires a better understanding of the debate between Plato and Aristotle, which we can get from these three videos. But basically, Plato believed that our reality was a false appearance, a mask concealing the True Reality, which was timeless and eternal andperfect: essentially, a Heavenly realm. (That's part of why Fitzgerald calls Gatsby a "son of God" in this quote, although there's more to it, as we'll see). Nick, like Plato's dissenting student Aristotle, believes perfection only exists in our heads, and we must focus on dealing with the flawed reality we find before us through extensive study and careful action (a "pragmatist" is a synonym for a realist). This contrast helps us understand why Nick has such mixed feelings toward Gatsby: he respects the "infinite hope" behind his Idealism, but doesn't share it at all. This is clearest in the sad ending of Chapter 6, with the famous line, "Can't repeat the past? Of course you can!" Your assignment for these chapters is to post a short paragraph defending Gatsby's Idealism or criticizing it from a Realist position, though you can take some in-between stance as well. But give some details from this final scene of Chapter 6, including some text beyond that key line, to support your point. *Now is also the time you want to start thinking about what you wnt to write your Gatsby paper about - and most of you will probably decide to develop your essay into your research paper, so choose a topic you're genuinely interested in. As always, I encourage you to go outside the boundaries of English (which is called being "interdisciplinary" in fancy academic language) - bring in history, psychology, contemporary issues, etc.) --> Remember the literary theories or "lenses" we used first marking period to produce interpretations of poetry, short stories and The Crucible? If you liked one of those you might start to bring it into your analysis. -Psychoanalysis: What happens to society when the Superego TELLS you to feed the Id, as in the Roaring 20s? What desires are the characters repressing, why, and how do they "seep" out in other ways? Also, is Nick gay? -Lacanian Psychoanalysis: How does Gatsby's Imaginary self-image get caught up with the Symbolic order of wealth? How does this lead him to treat Daisy as the Ideal that represents the Real (objet a)? -Structuralism: Patterns of images, use of symbols, mirroring or contradictory elements, archetypes -Feminism: The Platonic Ideal(s) of Woman in the 1920s, and its effects on Daisy and Myrtle
42 Comments
Rachel Kline
3/6/2016 02:18:55 pm
Even though Gatsby desperately wants to repeat the past, it is impossible, physically and psychologically. Even if people "start over" with each other the memories and fears will never go away of the past. If someone gets hurt by someone else and they "start over" that person will always be afraid of getting hurt again, causing constant timidness in the relationship. They will never fully trust each other which can cause numerous bumps along the road. Gatsby thinking he can just redo the past shows that he has regrets about his relationship with Daisy, but unfortunately, there is nothing he can do about them.
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Biggs
3/6/2016 03:48:07 pm
Hmmmm. Is extreme Idealism like Gatsby's ("I'll make everything JUST the way it was before!") almost a form of insanity?
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Willow Martin
3/9/2016 07:23:14 pm
I think the primary distinction between Gatsby and major innovators and revolutionaries is their ability to differentiate between reality and imagination. While both parties have grand, almost "crazy" ideas, Gatsby cannot understand or cope with the fact that these thoughts exist in his head rather than in reality, and in order to force his ideas into the world around him, he constructs complex facades in order to present the illusion that his ideas are in fact real. The big dreamers that the progress of this world does in fact depend on know that ideas must be translated into reality, rather than forced into it. Ideas to them serve as motivation to create real change, whereas for Gatsby, ideas are a part of reality from the moment of their conception.
Olivia Smelas
3/13/2016 09:23:55 am
I brought up this idea in my response. I think extreme idealism is exactly like insanity. Insanity is by definition is extreme foolishness/senselessness and that is exactly what Gatsby's behavior emulates. Gatsby is a hopeful fool in his belief that he can make everything exactly how it was before, that is physically impossible. Time cannot be erased, and human expressions cannot be ignored. Gatsby wants Daisy to deny her love for Tom, that is a childish desire, he had never considered Daisy could love more than one man. In my response I mentioned the connections between Gatsby and a child that I think were intended by Fitzgerald. What do mothers read their children to calm them before they sleep? A fairy tale. Was Gatsby's working, dirt poor mother who he ended up dissing reading him fairy tales before he slept? Likely not. What did Gatsby grow up thinking he was meant to be? A Son of God (a King) making him a Prince. What does he want Daisy to be? His princess. Gatsby's naivety is like a child's expectation for their life before they know what an awful place the world is, where people get run over by cars, have serious mental disorders, and get rejected by even the ones to whom they are the most dedicated, the most in love with. Gatsby just doesn't comprehend that, and I think that is absolutely a form of insanity.
JBiggs
3/14/2016 01:17:43 pm
Gatsby = Peter Pan?
Olivia Smelas
3/7/2016 12:13:48 pm
My thinking definitely parallels Aristotle's realist ideals over Plato's idealistic ones. I think Plato's ideas reflect a naivety that would really only sound feasible to a child. Seriously... reality is a mask for this truly perfect Real? Come on. In a way though, Gatsby is similar to a child. Fitzgerald even compares him to a child, calling him a "Son of God"... Gatsby didn't seem to have much of a childhood either, seeing as he aligned himself with Dan Cody early in life and was born with the idea that he was meant for much more than was given to him. Gatsby matured quickly, which could explain this slight naivety and inability to comprehend time. Freud would have a field day with the relations between Gatsby's conscious and conscious and how his subconscious desires translated into his conscious actions. I think this makes Gatsby slightly insane. He thought he could simple skip over five years of creepy stalking and devotion to a married woman, going to far as to purchase a house straight across the bay from her. Honestly, Daisy isn't even that great, she's fake, shallow, and manipulative, I don't think this obsession is validated, but that's just me. Anyway, it's established that Gatsby's an actual lunatic. The whole top part of page 110 is a perfect illustration of what I said above. Gatsby says: "Can't repeat the past?" he cried incredulously. "Why of course you can!"...."He looked around him wildly, as if the past were lurking here in the shadow of his house, just out of reach of his hand." This is a really important line for multiple reasons. On one hand it is a perfect example of the light--dark imagery Fitzgerald incorporates throughout the book. Shadows.... Gatsby is always retreating to the shadows when he is made uncomfortable or exposed, whenever he is unable to maintain his magician's illusions. The way the past is used in this line also parallels Daisy herself, who has always been just out of his reach, just across the bay, just some time away. There are plenty of other connections that could be made with this line, but that's all I can think of right now. This line also shows Gatsby's utter disregard for time, which in a way is very childish. Yeah, from a realist's point of view, Gatsby is a moron and too idealistic for his own good. If he was more of a realist, he might hold on to Daisy more easily... The past cannot be repeated in my opinion, and Gatsby's attempts to do that, though romantic and borderline creepy, are silly and illogical.
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Biggs
3/14/2016 01:21:50 pm
"He invented just the sort of Jay Gatsby a seventeen year old boy would be likely to invent, and to this conception he was faithful to the end" (Ch 6).
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Luke Devine
3/7/2016 01:50:26 pm
I believe that Gatsby's idea of repeating the past is completely illogical. No matter how hard you try, the past can never be repeated exactly as it was. There are too many variables at any given time in order to make the present like the past. This includes many uncontrollable things like current politics, and people's thoughts. Politics is involved because things like World War I could never be repeated exactly, and Daisy was separated from Gatsby because of the war. Without repeating this war the events between Gatsby and Daisy could never be repeated. Another uncontrollable factor, people's thoughts, would impact this situation because Daisy thinks differently than she did in years prior, a result of aging and maturing. This would cause her to make decisions different from those that she would have made years ago. Because of too many factors out of his control, Gatsby could never repeat the past exactly how he would have wanted.
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Hannah Daitz
3/7/2016 02:44:43 pm
Gatspy is so focused on reliving the past with Deasy that he forgets about the consequences ahead. By this I mean he completely disregards the fact that Daisy has a husband and daughter. He is so intensely focused on rewinding the clock back five years that he completely forgets reality. He forgets the times have changed and that while he was at war Daisy's feelings for him could have changed even though his didn't. Gatspy also shows signs of mental illnesses when he says "can't change the past? Of course you can!" This is simply not true. I feel like that statement is something a small toddler would say before he grasps the concept of time, not a grown man. Also the fact that Gatsby thinks that moving across the bay from Daisy is at all a good idea is beyond me. At first I thought it was sweet and romantic but it is boarder line creepy. I feel like somehow Daisy has unknowingly casted a spell on Gatsby that make him love her. I think the fact that Gatsby cannot let go of Daisy is another sign of a possible mental illness. They saying "if you love someone let them free" comes to mind. If Gatsby truly loves Daisy wouldn't he let her live her life as happily as possible? Yes it's possible that Gatsby thinks her life would be better with him, but clearly he has not taken Tom into consideration. In this time divorce was frowned upon so Daisy is stuck with Tom. When Gatsby re-entered Daisy's life it made it harder for her to be happy with Tom. Overall, I think Gatsby's inability to understand the concept of time shows he is both childish and mentally ill. He is too much of an idealist in my opinion and that is why he thinks he can just show up out of the blue and change Daisy's life forever.
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Arianna Manino
3/7/2016 03:20:05 pm
From a realist’s point of view, Gatsby is a character who is trapped in the past and he strives for ideals that are unreachable. Every choice he has made was because he believes, beyond any doubt, that he loves Daisy in the truest possible way. He thinks that wrongs can be made up for, and that time has no affect on people or relationships. The first thought, of wrongs being righted, is evidenced by his belief that Daisy’s marriage and love for Tom Buchanan (a wrong in his eyes), is fixable. It can be changed, and there will be no negative consequences. He refuses to believe that past mistakes, such as Daisy’s impatience and his wanderings, can be made up for and all will be the same. He truly believes that there are no consequences for his actions, which he believes to be true and ideal in every respect. Gatsby cannot acknowledge his mistakes, for that would mean giving up on his idealistic views on love and life. Time is nothing to Gatsby, except something to be ignored. It has no bearing on anything, whatsoever. Time does not change things. What was once true is always true. He does not see the flaws in his and Daisy’s old love, and therefore cannot possibly see the flaws in his love for her now, or just doesn’t want to. He refuses to acknowledge the possibility that Daisy doesn’t love him as he does her, or that she loves her husband Tom, just as much as him. I don’t know why Gatsby is so helplessly in love with Daisy because she is superficial, selfish, and a coward. The fact Gatsby believes Daisy will leave her husband and daughter for him is beyond me. The past cannot be repeated and Gatsby believing he can fix past mistakes is the gesture of a hopeless romantic and just illogical.
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Trey Soya
3/7/2016 05:06:33 pm
Gatsby quote "Can't repeat the past? Of course you can!" is a little over the top. He has become so obsessed with Daisy that it seems Gatsby is trapped in a world of idealism. The past can repeat itself, but, it seems like Gatsby wants every little moment to repeat forever in a perfect world which is highly unlikely and crazy. These sort of things just don't happen. Gatsby is rich and powerful so it seems that there is a possibility that Gatsby's plan will work. Another quote "I'm going to fix everything just the way it was before, She'll see" is a little crazy. He has no more sense of reality, how will Gatsby be able to pull off this crazy plan if Daisy is already married and already has a child. He's completely absorbed in his own little world and nothing else in the world matters. I imagine Gatsby being a puppet master with every other character on strings. Gatsby is powerful enough to place everyone exactly where he wants them to be, like I said before, will Gatsby be able to make his plan work.
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Olivia Jordan
3/9/2016 06:54:12 pm
I really enjoyed your interpretation because we both had a similar view point of Gatsby's mind. Maybe Gatsby will be able to use his power and fortune to put forth his whole "plan" together. It all depends on how much determination and power he has to recreate his old happiness. With all that he has done so far, I'm more optimistic of his abilities because with all the details put together it seems as though nothing is going to stop him at any given cost. I also really enjoyed Gatsby to a puppet master because it truly represented how far money and power can bring you in this world, it all depends how you can get to that state.
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Biggs
3/14/2016 01:26:04 pm
It's as if he takes his ability to play puppetmaster to PEOPLE as the sign of a deeper ability to control reality itself - he puts on magic shows so well he starts to believe he REALLY HAS magic powers.
Willow Martin
3/7/2016 05:29:25 pm
Gatsby's idealism, while admirable in many senses, has reached a point where the lines between reality and ideas have become blurred to the point of being essentially nonexistent. While this does allow for more mobility and lessened restriction in the translation of one's hopes and aspirations into a reality, the lack of clarity in Gatsby's psyche allows him to get caught up in a web of his own fantasies. Without a clear understanding of what is "real" and what is "imaginary," he has homogenized the mixture of thoughts and reality. Ideally, this would be a "great" and beautiful thing. Without being limited by the current, "real" state of things, we would be able to freely solidify our aspirations and dreams into reality. However, as we see with Gatsby, not all ideas are healthy ones, and trying to force them into becoming reality may result in catastrophe, as the real world tends to harshly reject one's overly fantastical fantasies from becoming true. Because the lines are so blurred in Gatsby's mind, he, in addition to not being able to differentiate between reality and imaginary, can not differentiate between good ideas and poor ideas (like trying to bend and transcend the very fabric of time in order to stitch together him and Daisy, despite them being separated for five years, during which Daisy has gotten married, had a child, and Gatsby has stayed cemented (mentally) in the past). I personally tend to lean more towards Realism than Idealism in my mentality, but I do believe that a balance between the two needs to be reached in order to allow for us to see reality in a honest light while still being able to motivate ourselves to make change by believing our aspirations can become reality. Gatsby has skewed this balance, tipping the scales towards total Idealism. In doing so he has lost touch with reality, which will hinder him from being able to think rationally and see truth, untainted by his own fantasies.
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Ford Zacks
3/7/2016 06:21:14 pm
Gatsby’s view on life is quite clearly flawed. However, how can you blame him? He started out dirt poor and still managed to get everything he wanted. When Nick tells the reader that Gatsby was a “son of God” he absolutely meant it. Gatsby was set up for failure and won flawlessly. Pure victory without failure does unfortunately lead to hubris. At this point even Gatsby believes he is a son of God. So, Gatsby’s desires, or ideas, are always turned into realities. But what is Gatsby, the son of God missing? That’s right. He is missing the perfect bride. After receiving everything he has desired for so long, of course he would think that he could definitely have Daisy. After the party that Daisy and Tom attended, Gatsby realizes that this would not be an easy task. This is something he is not used to. It is just like spoiling a child. Once they think they can get everything, they expect everything. Gatsby, being a crazy rich man, takes being spoiled to a whole new level. He actually believes that he can edit reality to copy the past. Gatsby says to Nick, and also creepily to himself, “I’m going to fix everything the way it was before” (Fitzgerald 110). Gatsby is obviously deranged thinking he can manage to do the impossible. This proves that the idealist view is not realistic for anyone. Not even the son of God.
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Olivia Jordan
3/7/2016 07:23:25 pm
Gatsby's ability to turn his idealistic dreams into reality thus far has been quite magical. Personally I am an idealist but not to the extent that Gatsby is. He is stuck in a time where Daisy's love is the only thing that matters to him and as a result of that he has not been able to move on with his life, situating himself to where he is so close to achieving that happiness again.His optimism and pure belief that anything can happen is displayed in the line "Can't repeat the past? Of course you can!" Who can blame him for completely "blurring the line" between reality and ideas when throughout his life whatever he envisioned or dreamed of has become a reality to him. He went from being a poor man to "richer than God". Was this blurred line a result of his determination or just plain luck? No matter what the cause was, I believe that anything is possible and that if Gatsby's happiness is found with Daisy than he should begin to make that a reality again. However, I do not agree that Gatsby can't completely recreate the past to force things back into place. It has been five years of experiences between these parallel lives and in order for these "changed" individuals to hopefully reunite, they must figure things out all over again. The ideas that he has must be balanced out by the reality of their current living situations, so I do think that reality must come into a count when dealing with ideas. This line brought about by Daisy seems to show the more genuine side to Gatsby but gives a hint of artificialness in the way he executes his genuine happiness through money and materialistic things. Through his constant drive to please her Gatsby has tried to create a life where she could see what she has missed out by having the best of love and riches combined.
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Kelly Farley
3/7/2016 07:46:34 pm
Nick tells Gatsby that "[he] can't repeat the past" in which Gatsby replies with, "Can't repeat the past?...Why of course you can!" I believe that Gatsby, whose views resemble Plato, is trying to convince himself that he can have things back to what they used to be with Daisy. So far, he has pretty much "made up" his way through life with his idealistic views that have transformed him from James Gatz to Jay Gatsby. He wants to continue this, having everything go as he plans. On the other hand, Nick, whose views compare to Aristotle, continues with his realism and tries to call Gatsby out, noticing the faults within Gatsby's plans to have Daisy again. Idealism has gotten Gatsby a long way and worked for him for so long that he does not want to see it start to break down if he admits or lets himself see the faults that Nick sees. This is why he then says to Nick with a nervous uncertainty, "I'm going to fix everything just the way it was before...she'll see". I believe that he is afraid that if the Daisy part of his ideas starts to fall down, then the rest of his perfectly made up facade may start to crumble down along with it.
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Erin Ostrowski
3/7/2016 08:27:14 pm
Personally, I believe Gatsby’s idealism goes way too far. Ever since he met Dan Cody, he has just wanted everything that he could never have as a child. He can’t bear to think that he failed to get something he wanted, thus being obsessed with Daisy for five years. Because of this major flaw in his master plan, Gatsby is determined to repeat the past which is simply not possible. Daisy has moved on and he should have too. Especially in a relationship situation, it would be very difficult for Gatsby to rekindle what he had with Daisy after such a long time. He won't allow his ideas about how he will live his life change and I think that will ultimately lead to his downfall. On the other hand, Gatsby simply wanted to build himself up to the man he always wanted to be, making his idealism a good thing. If he had been a realist instead, he would still be a poor farmer out west. The whole story would have never happened without his intense idealism, so in a sense there is a positive side to it as well. In my opinion, Gatsby’s idealistic views are very well intended until he goes and tries to repeat his past with Daisy and he crosses the line.
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Biggs
3/14/2016 01:43:50 pm
"Omnipotence," or the absolute power to control everything, is typically an attribute of God, and Gatsby is called a "son of God," with a "mind [that was] free to romp like the mind of God" (beginning and end of ch 6). God also exists in Eternity (heaven), and Gatsby almost believes he's able to to control time once he "crosses the line" into believing he can repeat the past, as you note. Does Gatsby desire, or even believe he can have, omnipotence? Does he worship himself in some sense (nick speaks of his intense self-absorption in Ch 8 and elsewhere).
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Ash Riegler
3/8/2016 02:44:17 am
Gatsby's wish to return to what once was is almost admirable in a sense. The idea of it mostly but perhaps what takes it from a simple want into an insistent need is what makes it some false illusion he is stuck inside. Idealism is not always a bad thing, to want to return to better days, but Gatsby goes about it in such a way that is almost frightening. He truly has himself convinced that he can erase five full years and pick back up where him and Daisy left off. Which is clearly shown in the simple exchange of dialogue where Gatsby speaks with Nick. Nick tried to bring down a bit of realism into Gatsby's falsity by telling him he can not repeat the past. But Gatsby will have none of it, crying out incredulously, "Can't repeat the past? Why of course you can!.... I'm going to fix everything just the way it was before." Gatsby is so stuck in his own facade that to him it's not even a facade anymore. His idea has become his reality. But Gatsby doesn't see it that way, he doesn't see it as a bad thing. He simply feels as though he is missing one little piece that can fix it all. That can somehow cross that bridge and erase five whole years. But even Gatsby is so unsure what that piece is, he does not know what he is missing. But he knows he needs to find it. "He talked a lot about the pas, and I gathered that he wanted to recover something, some idea of himself perhaps, that had gone into loving Daisy. His life had been confused and disordered since then, but if he could once return to a certain starting place and go over it all slowly, he could find out what that thing was..." Gatsby needs there to be something to make everything better. Gatsby needs his fantasy to become real or else he will have to face the truth, the truth that he wasted five years on a life that could never be. So perhaps this isn't a debate over realist and idealist. Perhaps this is just a man afraid of the truth that leads to his idealism. A man who sees the realist side but chooses to ignore it over.. A fear perhaps? Or maybe Gatsby is simply fooled by his own illusion and does not see the real.
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Keira Albano
3/8/2016 03:47:30 am
Although Gatsby's attempts to woo Dasiy are charming, he has no sense of imagination or reality. "History repeats itself" and it does but not in the way Gatsby is looking for. Gatsby has no sense of time and thinks that he can come back and it will just be like 5 years ago, even though Daisy has a life apart from him with Tom and the neglected child. To Gatsby however, Tom is just not in his "reality" so he completely denies Toms existence, his wealth, and his power. Gatsby lives in the past and at the same time lives in the moment, supplying Dasiy with every desire she craves. However, these decisions affect the future and the overall outcome of Gatsby.
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Olivia Jordan
3/9/2016 06:48:13 pm
I find it really interesting that you chose to completely exclude Gatsby from either "box" or imagination or reality. Basically Gatsby is the embodiment of the nonexistence of time and Tom is his sort of wake-up-call into the "reality" that time must exist. Maybe Gatsby doesn't necessarily deny his existence but is kind of hoping that if he closes his eyes he will just go away, almost like a child hiding from the "monsters" under their bed. In some ways Gatsby can be seen as stuck in his childhood where he is hiding behind the reassurance of his on voice and the "magic" he creates through his fortune.
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Seamus Cochrane
3/8/2016 03:31:21 pm
While Gatsby's goal of achieving perfection is applaudable, it is extremely unrealistic and in his struggle to attain perfection he is at risk of running himself into the ground. The simple truth is that perfection in any way is impossible. No one will ever be perfectly consistent in sports, nobody will ever be right every time, and no-one will ever lead the perfect life. And that is Gatsby's only goal in life; perfection. As he inches closer to his goal he'll become more and more anxious to get there, like a dog as it gets closer and closer to a treat. And if he moves backwards in any way he'll become desperate and will take drastic measures to stop the downward spiral. There is already evidence of this anxiety when he finally reunites with Daisy, the object that will complete his fantasy of perfection. In his haste to fulfill his dream, he pushes Daisy to divorce Tom, come back to him, and leave behind the highest status achievable at that time. This may not seem desperate, but he is asking too much too soon. Asking someone to give up all of the money and status in the world at the drop of a hat? It's unreasonable, unthinkable! That is why Gatsby's Platonic views will be his downfall, because perfection only exists in the imaginations of dreamers.
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Matthew Vaderveer
3/8/2016 04:57:55 pm
Gatsby is clearly not a realist. He built up in his mind what it would be like when he finally was reunited with Daisy and when the reality did not meet his expectations he was disappointed. He had this imaginary perfection achieved from money and the publicly known affection from Daisy, stuck in his head for years and this image consumed all of his attention. Instead of accepting that Daisy was married and moving on with his life, he insists on trying to obtain Daisy. Not only did he not accept that daisy was married but when he had the opportunity to win Daisy over he passed it up because he did not want her when he couldn't have her in his perfect imagined reality that he had built up in his head. His superego seems to be driving his desire. It does not allow him to run away with Daisy because it would be less acceptable in society.
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Kay Franzese
3/8/2016 05:39:36 pm
Gatsby's efforts in obtaining a perfect life had been successful for the most part, but in reality anything perfect is impossible. Gatsby's imagination had somewhat become him and pushed away all the thoughts of reality. Gatsby wanted a perfect life and he especially wanted everything to go back to the way it was 5 years ago with Daisy ;he had little concern for the consequences that might have stood in his way. Gatsby has become widely known as a powerful man, but even a man that powerful still cannot turn back the clock, though Gatsby still believes he can repeat the past. Gatsby's request of Daisy divorcing Tom and telling him she never loved him is a very demanding request. She had spent years trying to adjust to her life and gain the perfect life she has wanted for herself. She had the wealth and the social status and it would be ridiculous to just throw it away. Gatsby believes Daisy does not understand what has to be done so they can be together, but Daisy has the sense of reality and knows her limitations. Gatsby's imagination will eventually hurt him because he will never be able to obtain the perfection he works for.
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Biggs
3/20/2016 10:01:17 am
So perfection is just imaginary, and delivering yourself over to imagination cuts you off from reality, which is guaranteed to hurt you. A solid realist perspective. But I wonder if there is a better way to use the imagination, that "gift for hope" that lets us imagine better possibilities. What is a realist take on how to make the most of imagination?
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Meghan Pawlak
3/8/2016 06:52:48 pm
Theres a thin line between hopeless romantic and just plain hopelessness, and our man of the tale, Gatsby is hopping over that line. His attempts to reconnect his lost feelings with Daisy are beautiful and almost inspirational. However it comes to a point where he's asking her to tell Tom that she no longer loves him where we must re-evauluate his motives. asking someone whom you haven't seen in 5 years to break off their marriage to be with you if a bit of a long stretch, don't you think? You could also argue about how it was simply a dream that he would become rich and famous after growing up so dirt poor and that the same thing could happen with daisy if he tried hard enough. The thing with Gatsby, in my opinion, is that he doesn't seem to know the difference between being in love and being in love with the idea of love.
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sarah bailey lakatos
3/8/2016 07:08:20 pm
I am torn between Gatsby's idealism. I don't see anything wrong with wishing to reset and redo the past. There will always be things we wish we could do better or situations we wish played out the way we wanted. Dreaming for better things is human nature. Humans always want what they cant have and that will never change. However, there is a line between normal and insane. Gatsby thinks that he can change his past with Daisy. In his mind, starting over with Daisy will erase all the negatives from their first time together. It is impossible to change the past. Gatsby takes his fantasy to a whole new level. His history with Daisy will never go away and they cant just choose to forget about it because it will always be there eating at their hearts and minds. In this situation, Gatsby took his idealist views too far and crossed the line close to insanity.
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Biggs
3/14/2016 01:59:40 pm
What is it that makes Gatsby cross that line, go to that "next level" where idealism essentially becomes madness? Is it just desperation? Or real mental illness?
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Brad Chavero
3/8/2016 07:37:27 pm
Although Gatsby loves Daisy and has wanted her for himself for the last five years, he is now stuck wanting an idea of Daisy much more than Daisy herself which is not healthy for anyone involved in this case. Gatsby has admitted to Nick that Daisy has changed. She doesn’t understand him like she used to and she has different attitudes than before according to Gatsby. He also reveals to Nick that he wishes to give himself a second chance by reliving the past to make things right this time around now that he’s filthy rich and can make Daisy happy on his own. This is where Gatsby’s Platonian life hits a fine line. Gatsby is asking for too much of Daisy and also ruining a marriage simply because he wishes to daydream! No one can go back in time, not even the rich and powerful Gatsby! He can only keep moving forward as that is how time works so instead of trying to make an obnoxious fantasy come true about living in the past, Gatsby should be focused on trying to find a peaceful way to try to win over and live with Daisy in the present. Only by accepting the terms of the real world can Gatsby truly try progressing or else all his efforts are in vain as they are towards an idea of him and Daisy living together when action in the real world is what is actually required for this to become true. Gatsby’s intensive ideal envisionments have blinded him to how to properly deal with the situation at hand. Instead of trying to talk to Tom himself, he’s encouraging his fantasy to be reality by having Daisy try telling Tom that she never had her. Regardless, this scene is set up for disaster, but at least through a more realistic approach, Gatsby and Tom seem less crazy and more formal. However, if Daisy does go through with this in breaking things off with Tom in Gatsby's manners, it will only encourage Gatsby to keep on fantasizing as it will empower him to believe that all his ideas are reality! Gatsby has been in crazy love with Daisy for five years and it has taken his toll on his ability to see ideas/fantasies from reality. Such impairment is influencing Gatsby to try to live his life like if it were an impossible dream, something Gatsby will have to face in reality when it all fails and comes crumbling down on him.
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Suubi Mondesir
3/8/2016 07:41:37 pm
I believe that Gatsby is beyond how we define idealism. Gatsby's idealism is a mixture or battle between realism and idealism. The lines of what is real and fake are blurred and unclear in his mind. The majority of the time, Gatsby lives within the lifestyle he created to escape the very real events that threaten his imaginary one. The extragant house, parties, attire, behavior and love story, were all designed by Gatsby himself. They come across as if pulled from a fairytale, except Gatsby is still stuck on the outside. He's the author, but not the prince close enough to sweep Dasiy off her feet. He has to write it down first, preventing him from really experienceing and enjoying the life that started out as an idea, then moved to scrapes of paper and finally a novel thats not finished yet. However despite the elaboate plans Gatsby has for past and present, he cannot escape certian realites. For examlpe, women like Dasiy can fall for prince charming (Gatsby) or the villan (Tom). But most importantly, Gatsby's biggest fear is losing control, everything he's written down and Dasiy, who doesn't seem to understand {him} anymore. Unfortunately, Gatsby lacks an authors most powerful wepond. Gatsby can't edit or go back a page. He has to keep "going up" because in his past there's not enough to go back to. Gatsby lacks a balence in his life which is why he needs Nick. A voice to reason, thats always calm and reasuring. However, don't you think the world needs dreamers and boarder-line insane people like Gatsby? Without them we're quite boring and mediocre. We need DareDevils and out-of-the-box thinkers to shock and amaze us. We need Gatsby's to remind us of our crazy imagninations that can change the world and lives for the better. But we also need them to show us what happens when we forget reality and become lost in the rainbow swirls of fantacy. So what I'm trying to say is, we need both Plato and Aristotle and I would "prefer" not to choose.
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Shelley Banfield
3/9/2016 06:23:16 pm
Although Gatsby is stubbornly illogical, his idealistic nature is noteworthy. He has gotten so caught up in how he sees himself that he disregards anything that goes against it. Plato said that if you tell a naive person the truth or abnormal observations of the 'truth', they will violently retaliate. I haven't decided if anyone will violently retaliate against Gatsby or vice versa. It could be that he lives in a real world while every other character is stuck behind their own forms of idealism or vice versa. Although we perceive Gatsby as being literally insane and obsessed with Daisy, could love be the only REAL thing that is desperately worth fighting for? Or is love another facade proving that not everything is as it seems?
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Biggs
3/20/2016 09:59:24 am
Now that we've finished the novel, we've seen that yes, Wilson violently reacts against Gatsby (and himself). But I don't think Gatsby would have regretted anything (which is why I reject Nick's interpretation of Gatsby last moments). The fantasy has become the reality for him.
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Courtney Fenty
3/10/2016 04:26:46 pm
Gatsby being an idealist is not necessarily a bad thing. Gatsby hope and longing for his dream life is something everyone wants and thinks of very often. Most people plan out their lives, with things they would like to have or be, from a young age. It's not bad to want greatness for yourself. Although, Gatsby goes beyond just dreams. He has such a specific life planned out for himself down to the very last detail which happens to be his beloved Daisy. To complete his fantasy, he needs his wife. Which to most people is concerning because no one plans out who exactly their husband or wife will be. Gatsby has made his expectations very high, so high that they might not be reachable.
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Tyhler Harty
3/10/2016 05:51:01 pm
Idealism is good for people but the thought is good to use it in moderation. The reason why is because if people begin to stray away from the real hard facts of life then they would go crazy with trying to be perfect. In Gatsby's place it is not very good for him to be a die hard idealist. I don't blame Gatsby for being an idealist since it has helped him his whole life. The reason why Gatsby is an extremely wealthy man is because of his idealistic nature and his intelligence, but his idealism has been hurting him. The reason why is because he begins to try and revive the past with trying to bring Daisy back into his life.Now trying to revive the past is bad for Gatsby since 5 years has past since he last saw Daisy(who has changed). But since he wants to have the perfect life, he would do anything to get Daisy which is kind of like Gollum and the one ring from the Lord of the Rings.
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Biggs
3/14/2016 01:24:26 pm
Gollum is a great example of idealism gone horribly horribly wrong - the ring, which Gollum can't even actually use, nonetheless because this obsessive idea of the Perfect Thing ("the precious"). The psychoanalyst lacan called that fantasy of the Perfect Thing "object a," for "other" ("autre" in french) - he thought everyone had the tendency to, like Gollum, fixate on some object or person or goal that they thought would "complete" them. But in reality, nothing could except self-acceptance of their flaws. An interesting concept for an essay there!
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Kaitlyn Viola
3/13/2016 03:27:16 pm
Gatsby's idealist mindset is unrealistic, however, it is not necessarily a bad thing overall. Gatsby's hope is admired by many, and this hopeful way of thinking may be the only way he gets through things. To be completely realistic, with no thought of the possibly positive outcomes of situations, you could live a much sadder life. Gatsby takes his dreams farther, and considers them as a reality. He directs his desire for things like Daisy's love towards future possibilities. His entire world revolves around bringing his fantasies to life.
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Jackie Izzo
3/23/2016 02:49:40 pm
Gatsby's personality contains a plutonian perspective about life. His idealism is similar to Plato's ideas of creativity and living your own created fantasy. In the novel Gatsby demonstrates his own fantasy when he explains about his past life. The run-down and poor version of James Gatz did not suit his new world of Jay Gatsby. In chapter 6, Gatsby thinks he can change the past with Daisy. Time stops for Gatsby and attempts to reconnect five years of lost feelings. Even though very unrealistic with his reasoning to change the past this sense of hope makes his character determined. Another reason Gatsby became hopeful is his experience with Dan Cody. Cody literally elevated Gatsby to another social class and with his help, the rich fantasy of Jay Gatsby flourished. In my opinion, I am happy that Gatsby has that form of hope in his new world. It is refreshing and inspiring.
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Kathleen Patterson
3/23/2016 07:10:59 pm
Gatsby has the right to be full of ideals, and trying to make them his reality. Being so fully idealistic helps him build hope and reach his goals, however a lot of it is false hope because of this and drags him down, making him much more unhappy than he would have to be otherwise. Some believe that who you wish you could be or become is who you really are, but I think it`s somewhere between that and who you presently are, because everything about a person makes up who they are, not just a part. With this said, that means that Gatsby's Idealism doesn't make up his entire being, because James Gatz is still a part of him. Therefore, I think that most of Gatsby's Idealism is justified, because it`s helping him become a person that he would rather be. However, his neglect of the other part of himself that he is trying to leave behind leads me to say that he is taking his Idealism a little bit too far, completely forgetting the reality of it all. For example, right after Gatsby tells Nick that the past is repeatable, he preaches that he`s “going to fix everything just the way it was before” (Fitzgerald 110). This suggests that reality is broken, and could be sewn back together to be “correct” again. However, instead of this “broken” present eventually getting better in the future, he acts as though he could go back so that it never “broke” in the first place.
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Makenzie
4/4/2016 02:45:14 pm
Even though I'm so realist I border on pessimist (if I'm not technically a pessimist), I feel empathy for Gatsby's position. I think the war messed him up. He wants to repeat the past before the war, back when Daisy loved him. So he drives himself insane attempting to repeat a past no one wants. He can't understand that people, especially Daisy, have changed, and maybe even moved on.
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Bridget Kelly
4/5/2016 06:45:35 am
While Gatsby's idealism goes to the extreme sometimes, it shows us how much of a gift for hope he has. Whether it be for himself or others, he has hope. This is shown especially when he tells Nick "Of course you can repeat the past." While he sounds crazy and kind of obsessed with Daisy, we see how determined he is to make his life better and the hope he has that he will be reunited with her. But aside from this, we also see how much of a perfect image he has created for himself. Throughout the book, we notice how Gatsby's whole image of himself is crushed without Daisy. Which leads me to wonder if Gatsby is obsessed with Daisy or the idea of having Daisy in his possession. His has made his life almost perfect for himself and Daisy seems to be the one thing that he can't seem to control and it's what drives him crazy.
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Sydney Gannon
4/7/2016 06:37:25 pm
Jay Gatsby does a very good job with putting the facade over the real to show the ideal. He keeps himself hidden for an extreme amount of time which becomes the mystery of Gatsby. He can only put on the show for so long and when he breaks some character and states that you can repeat the past, Nick thinks he has gone crazy. I agree with Gatsby to a certain extent. You can repeat senerios of the past, but they will never be as they were. He likes to believe that this is his real life and that everything will go back to normal, but this is not who he really is and it will never be. It's just a show for a girl he loves.
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